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November 29, 2012

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David is right. A new era has dawned, driven not by a clunky science museum and conservative city finance, but by AAA baseball, the economic super-engine of the border, bond debt and trickle-up economics (aka "no billionaire left behind").

I'm sure as soon as the first bat is swung, that Microsoft, Oracle, HP and 20 other tech giants will be clamoring for office space downtown and to hire the tech-savvy, EPISD-educated workforce manning the hotdog stand at the ball park and bussing tables at The Garden.

Oh for god's sake Norma/Three Names/Salazars, get a freaking life.

I can't wait for a new axe to come along for you to grind. This one is getting worn out.

David
You counted your chickens before your eggs hatched.The petition was certified by the city clerk of El Paso.Maybe you missed that.
In addition the suit in the state courts is not over which you guys have to get passed.Yes you will say that the CC will shoot it down but then they have a right to petition again and go before the voters.

David
Source KFOX at the end of their 5:30pm broadcast.

thomas,

the petition is going to council and they will let it be voted on next may - when the building has already been taken down. you can't make ordinances retroactive by vote - the laws doesn't work that way and their attorney has already told them that. Besides - there are problems with the language just like with the gay benefits language. Nobody is worried about that at all.

Even if it did go to the voters - they've already voted once to approve the project, it's likely they'll vote for it again - especially since the building will already be gone.

What state lawsuit? People keep talking about that, but I haven't seen it. And there is no injunction threat from the state lawsuit, so the building as of right now is coming down.

It's done Thomas - the lawsuit was a joke and the petition is too. Besides - the voters spoke and they spoke loudly. Even if the council wanted to toss the petition aside, the voters have given the mandate to do so.

David
Wrong!
From KVIA Save City Hall initiative petition going to voters
Brenda De Anda-Swann
http://www.kvia.com/news/Save-City-Hall-initiative-petition-going-to-voters/-/391068/17599472/-/e993ddz/-/index.html

"Timeline of Save City Hall Initiative Petition:
Petitioners submitted a first set of signatures. They were verified.
The issue was placed before council. Council rejected the issue.
Petitioners submitted a second set of signatures. They were verified Thursday, Nov. 29.
Now, city charter says the city clerk "must place the reproposed ordinance on the ballot at the next general election." The next general election is scheduled for May.
If a majority of people approve it in the election, it shall become a city ordinance."

David
Should would be nice if you would fact check what you post.They can now go back to the state courts for another injunction.Let the CC touch that building before the people vote.

Thomas....KABOOM!!! Put your lingo on the ballot...despite last elections results. You're really funny with your windmill stabbing. Hahahaha Hahahaha!!! You're an idiot Thomas. Hahahaha Hahahaha!!! Put your ballot up who cares..you already lost once. Now you'll lose again with a vote that will already be moot.. Because by May... The building will be KABOOM!

NORNC
Do not count your KABOOMs they just might blowup in your fact.As I posted and was right they now have the right to ask the courts for an injunction.You may want to check the up date on KVIA.I addition For David the next suit comes before the state courts on Dec 5 the last I heard.
In fact there could be a petiton to the fifth for a review of the last case but I think it would be better to take it to state courts.NORNC get over it the fat lady has no sang on this yet and sure would be nice if some like you understood the process.

I wonder how many times these folks will try and stop this before they give up. They basically got laughed out of federal court before they even got their day, and no state court will seriously consider this after examining the federal case. Heck, just the claims made in the lawsuit and the justification for preventing the demolision for city hall is about as moronic as possible. It sounded like a joke.

Even with the petition getting enough signatures and being certified, it doesn't prevent city hall from coming down this March. That has already been establish time and time again. The horse is already dead! Quit beating it!!! Is there anything beyond grasping at straws?

KABOOOM!!

Exactly. Enough already. Problem is, the "crazies" who are against this are well, crazy! The city has spoken. The Courts have spoken. This City is ready to Rock and Roll! Why, you have to wonder, would anyone oppose the amazing progress we are already seeing. And btw, is anyone watching what is going on at the Plaza Theater. Beauty and the Beast is nearly sold out at the average price of $75 a ticket not counting all the add on's which brings the price per ticket up an additional $10.00. That means 4 tickets for a family of 4 is over $300! That does not include what to feed the kids at Applebees that will include cocktails for mom and dad. Plaza is booked with shows every month. Who is going! So the crazies are saying that the average El Pasoen can't afford a $7.00 baseball ticket and a hot dog!

Crawl under your rocks and leave everyone in this City who is ready to move ahead alone. Or maybe you should start Occupy Plaza Theater - since know one can afford to go there - just saying...

Per KVIA

"The Council is not obliged to consider the same ordinance initiated by petition, or one that is substantially the same, more often than once in two years.

The petition is scheduled to be discussed on City Council's Dec. 4 agenda."


City Council can still reject the intitiative, but even if they uphold it, it won't prevent city hall from being demolished. El Pasoans will just be voting to create an ordenance to prevent demolishing a building that at that point will have been taken down 2 months prior. Dum dum dum dum dum.

riburn
NO the cc has already rejected the petition the second petiton goes to the voters.
Sure would be nice if you guys understood what the Judge really said.Just because all you want it means nothing when it goes before the courts and does not stop the process.Why do you think the CC is going to discuss this again when they having not obligation to review this petition again?Even if the CC says nothing zero it still will go before the voters.In addition it stops no suits that are caming before the courts or those that could be waitng in the wings.
It's now in the people's court who did the petiton to go forward for an injunction if they want and there is nothing you can do to stop this or the suit that goes before the state courts in December or any others suit that could be coming down the pike And there is not a damn thing you can do to stop.Here is the true which in favor of the other side the longer they drag this out the worst it becomes for the city and the CC.

Yes Thomas, that is what you and everyone else against this has been saying since day one. First, it was that the Mayor was surely going to veto the whole thing. Second, the bond election stood no chance because "the people" didn't want this. Third, the Federal suit would stop city hall from coming down.

Now, it's clinging to some state law suit that doesn't seem to exist, and even if it does exist, there's no reason to believe anything will materialize.

Again, even if the petition goes before voters in MAY, it's 2 months after city hall will already be taken down, and there is nothing that can prevent that within the petition. IF these folks do anything right, it should be to ensure that FUTURE quality of life issues like this go before the voters.

Also, per KTSM :

"The demolition of City Hall will now go before voters in May if it's approved by city council. Council representatives can reject the initiative."

I will say this Thomas, you and your friends have been wrong 100% of the time so far on just about every issue. Can we go to Vegas and put up some prop bets? You're a sure thing to fail.

riburn3
The CC has to bring it to a vote before the people.It is just like Brown and company they could not kill it before bring that prop before the voters even though the CC did not like it.KTSM is wrong.In fact rep No's own statement said they could have an early vote on this prop.Then again No said it would cost the city a lot of money which was about one stupid statement when a vote will cost no where near,not even close,to what this crap will cost.The CC is running scaried now because they have painted themselve into a corner.Stevo made one out landish statement that the contract cannot be broken.When they start lying their asses off like this it is a sure sign they are in trouble.Sorry there sparky no matter how you guys slice it your side is in trouble on this and you cannot stop the suits if others want to take them to court.
I want to hear the laughter when the city tell the courts they will not bring it before the people for a vote because the building will be gone by then when they already have admitted they could have an early vote on this prop.You have no won shit yet just more posturing by the CC and their supporters that is it. So let see what happens next week in state court,also let's see if the other side goes for an injunction.

I can't wait to see what happens next Thomas. Pretty much everything thus far has gone according to plan with the only real suprise being how overwhelmingly the bonds passed, even that shocked supporters.

In the end, those against this will always be against it no matter what. Even if this does go to voters and it actually determined the fate of city hall, and voters approved the demolition, opponents would still be arguing that the public is misinformed, and still try to do whatever they can to get it stopped. It will never end.

Before the bond election, Stephanie Townsend Allala was quoted as saying that if the bonds pass, there would likely be no further action that could prevent the demolition of city hall. Well, a day after they all passed with flying colors, she was posting garbage about how the fight wasn't over.

Her whole campaign (and the rest of the opposition) against the bonds was that "A no vote means no to the stadium". Despite this lie, they passed and based on her flawed logic that means a yes vote meant yes to the stadium.

Again, the horse is already dead, you can't keep on beating it. I love how you claim we are in trouble when every single event in this saga has gone 100% in our favor. You keep deluding yourself to thinking you have a chance sparky.

riburn
100% the way it was planned?So it was the planned all along to mislead the voter and lie.It was the planned all long to make sure the voters never really had a vote.So it was planned to lie to the elderly and disabled, which Cook got up on tv and said was not the truth,that the elderly and disabled would end up being taxed.Yep, we agree there was a whole lot of lying going on by the CC just as planned.In addition I understand the process you seem to have missed.Let say it is brought to a vote as it was with Brown and company's prop and it passes. I do understand the CC can shoot it down .Then again this time there may be a different out come than you think.STA is not your problem and is sure the hell who you guys should being worrying about in court.Then again her e-mail may sure shine light for others on the back room dealings.Then once again you are telling the same lie here prop 3 was not about if the people of EL paso wanted this stadium but who would pay for it since the people had not have a say to the stadium to start with.In the end like David K it will have no effect on me but I say it wrong because the CC fucked the voters once again in having a say and a vote on the stadium.If you guys win and right now that is a big if enjoy you burden of taxation and the kill of El Paso under such debt load.Then again when it all goes to shit all the blow hards here will slink away and never take ownership to what they promoted.If I end up being wrong I will man up and say I was wrong but it ain't over yet.

Well done you, riburn3!

You pointed out the flaws in the oppositions arguments in a well-thought out post, showed how their fluid stupidity will always find a way around logic, and didn't call anyone names, or propose violence against anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Too bad Rotten Peppers/Three Names/Norma/Martin/all the Salazar crazies will come up with new and even more outlandish "facts" as to why you're wrong. But that's okay, man, we'll just keep fighting the good fight!

What is totally sad is how much money this nonsense is costing the taxpayers. It costs A LOT of overtime for the City Clerk's office to verify these petitions.

These people need to let it go. They have been proven they are wrong time and time again. They DO NOT speak for the majority and this past election proved it.

City Hall is a dump. And it has to do with the way it was built because of the shady deals that were done when it was built. We are getting rid of a mistake from the past. Let's move on.

Thomas, please learn to break things down into paragraphs and maybe then I will read your rant. You can't even space your sentences apart. Ladies and gentlemen, the opposition.

Did anyone see Eddie Holguin last night on KVIA? I mean he is just rabid about the right to vote on this stadium deal. Yet - he doesn't mention that in District 6 - his district - the voters OVERWHELMINGLY supported the HOT tax for the "sports venue" - aka stadium. So Eddie is surely not representing his districts interests at all. Did KVIA bother to ask him why his position was counter to what the actual vote was in his district? That would have been a great question for him to answer. The only answer to that would be - I don't care - I don't like it and I do what I want regardless of what my district says.

KVIA doesn't ask those types of questions because they are in bed with the crazies who don't want the ballpark to be built. They are seriously in bed with them, as in they let Three Names dictate who hosted XTra the weekend before the election because they were trying to help her sway it.

They'll continue to try and drum up support for the Camp Looney Tunes troops for as long as there is a whisper of a chance that they can stop City Hall being demolished. If you think EP Times has an agenda, just watch the anti-ballpark propaganda masquerading as a newscast on Channel 7!

They're all in with their agenda against the ballpark because they are 'Xicanas' and think the evil white people are trying to wash the brown off of Chucotown! And that, dear reader, is why you'll continue to see Eddie Holguin spouting off his bullshit on their shows.

Thomas I ought to slap you with my "long John"

Seems someone one got themselves an injunctions hearng.100% going as planned!

Just a word of thought. Little boys who have small manhood's usually are the first to talk about how "long john" they are. Please keep your pee pee comments for the Dr. Drew show.

Yes there is an injunction hearing. YOU GUYS .Keep missing the obvious.

I don't really think KVIA is in bed with the opposition. While they might give them more press, they also do a good job of disproving a lot of their statements.

For example, when STA was there for her debate, she made all kinds of claims as if they were fact, and Estella Casas during the next days broadcast broke them down and disproved a good chunk of them.

While I agree a lot of the questions they could be asking in the heat of the moment could be better, they at least follow it up within 24 hours.

In reality, to me all these things do is show how ridiculous these folks are, and I believe do more to hurt than help them. They come across as rude, aggressive, and out of touch.

riburn
Your double standards are glaring.
No more rude,aggressive,out of touch and disrepectful to the citizens than Stevo,Niland,and Snow Bunny Wilson.
Then again such behavor is OK coming from the side you support.
Remember that STA and the others you hate so much are the citizens,the masters,with the right to question their city government's actions.
Stevo,Niland,Snow Bunny Wilson are the servant who do not want to act as servants and more than show that they want to be the masters.Then again this works for you.

Okay I am going to spell this out for all of you, who like me, want nothing more than to be there when they blow that building up. But while we were all focused on the Federal case there was something far more insidious going on down the street at the district clerks office. At the same time the federal case was filed a case was filed in State court. That is the case that really matters folks. The fed case never had a chance really. The State court case (I am not a lawyer and I don't know a thing about whatever law is involved in something like this) could bring things to a halt depending on how the judge rules. If he grants their injunction it will stop the demolishment for awhile. That building may NOT be coming down in March. So there is a chance that they have prevailed at least temporarily until May when we will vote again. Not as dumb as they appear. The temporary injunction hearing is on January 10, 2013 in CC 5 at 9:30.

M Morals
If the injunction is put in place the city could have an early election probably no early then March.April probably would be more realistic.If the Prop passes the CC could throw out the vote and do what they want.Then again I do not believe it would go down as easy as the Brown & Company voter appoved prop did.It will be interesting to see for the CC and those who support the CC on this if this goes 100% as they planned.

You know Thomas, I hate to say it, but you might be right. Just gotta hope for the best, that we'll have another excuse to have a Victory Party down at the Garden.

Thomas, Niland has NEVER said anything rude about anyone. Get your facts straight.

It's about economic development and the bureautards in city hall, as usual, have it backward as do the stadium supporters. To develop economically, you don't aim at ballpark hot dog stand jobs; you aim at creating an environment to which quality businesses will be attracted or inducement to start such businesses, something this city is incapable of doing.

Sorry, folks, a baseball team will not do that. In fact, the way this deal is framed, it will suck money out of the tax base no matter what the HOT brings in.

So I hope the crazies keep plugging and maybe the gods will give them enough help to scuttle the deal.

Look at it another way, why would you move your business here when the voters are so dumb that they will literally vote away their right to vote just to get a team? Are those the kind of people you want as workers? Docile, dumb and gullible? Maybe you do, but what kind of business are you if that is what you need? You can just go over the Rio to find millions of them.

Rotten Peppers, I don't remember seeing one person saying baseball will be the single catalyst/savior we have all been waiting for. What people have been saying is it's a part of the larger whole we are trying to put together in our city to make us look more attarctive to outsiders, and provide more things for those of us that live here to do. No one with their head on straight thinks baseball alone will do that.

A city as a whole that has a bustling downtown, that includes an arena, with a stadium hosting professional baseball (among other events), with decent places to live, and good eateries/night life is a large compliment to the city, and makes us much more attractive to the outside world. Throw in all the other goodies in the Props, and yes, businesses looking at El Paso will find our city much more attractive then they currently do.

Just think about other Texas cities or any other big city. When you are in Austin, downtown is the place to be. In San Antonio? Head downtown to the river walk where there is great food and good night life. Heading to Denver? Catch a game at Coors Field or the Pepsi Center, and have a beer at one of the great bars after the game downtown.

While baseball is a large part of the bigger picture, no one thinks this is our cities savior, and everyone from the ownership group to the knowledgable supporters have been saying that since day one. It's just a very nice piece of the whole pie we are trying to make.

Thomas I have no double standards. Members of city council have been rude and aggressive and I make no apologies for them. I guess the biggest difference however is STA, Norma, etc do it in a very public forum, and members of the city council were found to be disrespectful after their emails were read in an information request. Norma is constantly calling other people names on her show but acts horrorified by the e-mails set out by Joyce Wilson. Saying someone has demntia isn't half as bad as what some in the opposition are saying to Wilson and others in City Council or about the Hunts/FOsters.

Both sides have been ridiculous.


One thing I strongly disagree with is STA and others position against the ownership group in particular, painting them as greedy money grubbing business owners when they in fact are our cities largest philanthropists. When they announced they would donate all baseball profits to charity, STA publicly questioned Paul Fosters sincerity and accountibility in an incredibly rude manner when he has no responsibility to prove anything to her.

I understand wanting this to go to a vote and not wanting to tear down City Hall, but the way the opposition has gone about making their case has been just as shady as the way City Hall was determined to be brought down in the first place. I would love to see some of STA e-mails sent to some of her "gente" regarding the whole matter.

"A city as a whole that has a bustling downtown, that includes an arena, with a stadium hosting professional baseball (among other events), with decent places to live, and good eateries/night life is a large compliment to the city.."

Riburn3; no argument with you there. It is a matter of means, not ends that is the argument.

Riburn3
STA is not an elected official and has zero obligations to transparency. Then again elected officials do have an obligation to transparency that did not happen in this case.
The other thing I take issue with is that STA had no right to question Foster/Hunt on their sincerity and accountability. This would be true if it was being done with just Foster/Hunt own money but they asked for the people's tax dollars and the people have a right to question their motives even if some do not like it. You are wrong on this one riburn3.You may not like the way the questions are asked but others do have a right to question Foster/Hunt. If Foster/Hunt did not want others questioning them they should have done this totally on their own dime.

Second there are those who are against this in the belief that government should not be footing the bill, for private interest, for a project like this on the people's tax dollars without the people having a straight vote to if they want a ball park and a baseball team.
The CC did everything they could to keep the tax payers from having a seat at the table and having a real vote to what is being done in their name.

riburn3, there is a some questions with Wilson. From her own e-mails she seems to be acting as an agent of city government and a de facto lobbyist for Mountainstar which you know or should know it a conflict of interest. Remember she is to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest. Also Wilson does not get to pick who on the CC she works for. Wilson withheld important information from some members of the CC. This information was timely in CC members knowing not after the fact. This is a real big no no and she should be held accountable for her actions.

riburn3,my real issue with this is that the people should have been given a straight forward vote to if they wanted a new ball park and team and the end run the CC did around the people's right to have a vote on it. This is mainly what made people mad.Sorry no argument can be made for Wilson or the CC actions in not doing so.
One other note to all the morons making threats of harm against others here.Does not matter which side is doing it.Grow the hell up and I do hope David turns it over to Law enforcment.How stupid are you to believe that you cannot be trace and tracked down. Go get them David!Nothing but cowards hiding behind their keyboards.


This city embraces corruption and loves pay to play politics. Nothing will change that. The courts are a reflection of that and they will do nothing in this case.....guaranteed.

Delores Brinones gets a walk because of her federal judge borther. None of the other gulity pleas have spent a day in prison and they never will. The federal prosecutors around town are just as tained as the local political system. Our local elected DA is a joke. I know for a fact that the local FBI has been questioned by the peons who provided evidence to them only to see nothing but inaction. Just like the TEA lady Miss. Castleberry...who rejected evidence from a whistleblower.

It amazes me how the owner/operator of this blog and the majority of his commenters love to laugh at the little people. I know you guys are going to win today...tomorrow and forever here in El Paso. Can you at least have some sympathy and empathy for the people who have nothing to do with government but are a victim of it? I only come here to get my dose of outrage for the elite ppeople who screw over the little guy and have the audacity to laugh at them.

In the meantime, enjoy your holidays, board apppointmens and sweet taxpayer financed contracts and abatement deals.

The pervasive culture of corruption in this city is, IMO, one of the main reasons businesses will not locate here unless there are other overriding reaosns to do so, e.g., Ft. Bliss contracts. To me, the stadium just reinforces this perception, even if it was all done "legally." It still looked crooked.

Rotten Peppers.... Sometimes in life ....if you want to make real change...you let smarter people than you do the deciding. In this case CC was the decider...and as they were elected to make the hard choices for our town, I back them. Except Eddie...oh and Carl....oh wait and Emma...they will be known for being on the the wrong side of the decider train, because well...they werent the deciders. In this case the deciders will prosper...like Ortega decided to decide the right way and the people will decide that he will be our next mayor as a result of their deciding. Thats why its always good to be on the right side of the deciders position so your deciding street cred doesnt get decided to the dumpster....like "Former Mayor Protempore Emma Acosta" for you see she decided to decide what she thaught the mayor was going to decide but she guessed wrong on the mayors deciding skills. As a result she will not have the votes of the deciders should she decide to run for Mayor against Ortega, who happens to be on the right side of the deciders who decided to decide on this baseball stadium deal.

I'm glad you weren't around for the 13th amendment debate. Sometimes you have to stand up for what you believe is right even if the crowd doesn't agree. The CC thinks it has done so and I disagree.

It's over when the wrecking ball hits CH.

Rotten Peppers, you just dont get what this country was founded upon...especially in regards to the Thirteenth Amendmant....for you see Rotten Peppers...the deciders decided that one too!!! Get it now!!!

Looks like Rotten Peppers just saw Lincoln.

Dear THE LAST NUTTY WORD, if you think I am rich or powerful, you are sadly mistaken. I live from paycheck-to-paycheck. I want better for myself and my children and I know the city moving forward is the best thing for the city and for families.

You seem to have a problem with anyone with money or power and ASS-U-ME they are corrupt. Well, I think YOU are corrupt. Corrupt in your ethics of accusing innocent people, corrupt in your heart, etc.

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