I'll level with you and pretend that you have the "right" to open government. It doesn't appear in the Bill of Rights or any other subsequent amendment, so it's not a right, but I'll play along for the sake of being able to have an argument in the first place.
When Four Names Allala and her merry band of morons requested every word written by Joyce Wilson and the progressives on council from the beginning of time, they were within their "right" to do so. Where the problem began is how they went about assessing those emails and the public statements they made about what they *thought* was in them.
The outcome of what I'm sure is a million words of email correspondence was two emails where Joyce Wilson told the painful truth about certain members of the public and at least one member of city council (even if she wasn't referring to him at all). That didn't stop Four Names Allala insinuating that she had multiple smoking guns on multiple people and that indictments were to be quickly following. The El Paso press blindly took Four Names at her word and blasted to the public scary stories of insider deal cutting and all around malfeasance on the part of everyone not named Emma Acosta, Eddie Holguin or Carl Robinson at city hall. Unfortunately all the stories were untrue and the El Paso media as a whole, or individually, has yet to correct the record and apologize for their ethical lapse.
What is the real result of Four Names' publicity stunt? Less email being sent to, and between, city staff, city council members and the public. The whole "Chuco Leaks" effort has had a chilling effect on exchanges among, and with, city hall folks - at least in the way of trackable digital communication.
People I talk to are deathly afraid of sending emails to their representative or to city staff fearing that Four Names and friends will makes something of it that it is not. Even the friends of Allala on council (Holguin, Acosta and Robinson) have reduced their communication by email hoping to avoid their political enemies making something out of nothing. At this point Debbie Nathan is rabidly hunting down the identities of people who email the city with their concerns of matters such as confusing petitions. When private citizens voicing concerns to city representatives becomes a matter of risking your reputation - the process has taken a step backward, not forward.
City council members, city staff and the public have always had legal alternatives to conversing over easily searchable and reportable avenues such as email. The good ol' fashioned face to face conversation isn't subject to Open Records Requests (ORR). They become especially less reportable when they take place off site in a public place.
Guess where all those conversations that used to take place over email have gone? If you guessed "to lunch at Leo's," mark yourself a point on the board. Allala's grand failure has driven city reps and staff into the dark away from the prying eyes of the digital age. The net result of Allala's open government push is more closed government. Nice job!
------------
And just a word for what Nathan is looking for. Somebody spent a lot of time this weekend trying to convince me that the email she's looking to identify are from Woody Hunt and Paul Foster. They claim that Nathan thinks those two billionaires cut the deal with Wilson on her personal email address. I hope to God that Nathan is just spiteful toward people who don't share her political views and not stupid enough to think Hunt and Foster would cut deals with officials through unofficial means. Let me explain.
Paul Foster, Woody Hunt and Josh Hunt deal with government on every level, every single day. Hunt builds military housing and is a private developer and property owner - lots of government interaction there. Paul Foster's refineries and other business ventures are heavily regulated by the government. These men know better than to communicate anything of importance offline and outside the official channels. Anything promised from a personal email account by a public official might as well have never been offered at all - it's not actionable.
There's no way on God's green earth that the Fosters or the Hunts would make a deal over personal email. They were looking for a legally binding deal that will be fought out in court if the city doesn't live up to its side of the deal. Making deals on personal emails with city council and city officials doesn't help you in court - these men knows this. They didn't earn the money they earned by being stupid.
Nathan needs to realize that she's going to end up hurting private citizens with no connection to the ballpark if she gets what she wants. I hope that is her goal, because it's a nasty thing to do to someone on accident.
It goes to show how fucking stupid City and CC officials can be to not have seen that their actions with respect to MS would lead to this sorry situation. No one will ever believe a goddam thing that JW or anyone on CC says about anything.
Life is more than money. No trust equals "give us everything" other wise we will believe you have something to hide. And maybe they do? If CC or JW said the sun will shine tomorrow, I would check the weather forecast before I'd believe them.
Posted by: Rotten Peppers | March 04, 2013 at 11:12 PM
Damnit Norma!!
Posted by: Damnit Norma! | March 05, 2013 at 01:54 AM
Rotten Peppers,
They didn't do anything wrong - 7,000 emails prove that nothing was illegal or even unethical. I think you are pointing the finger the wrong direction.
Posted by: David K | March 05, 2013 at 08:13 AM
David;
I do not dispute that the emails show no illegal action so far. They do show that this deal and resolution terms were effectively "downloaded" in toto to JW who downloaded it to CC. That is, a private business interest dictated the terms of the deal - $100MM of coporate welfare - to a compliant CC who passsed it without prior public hearings in a financial coup-d'etat on June 26th.
That is not the action of a civic body that respects the trust of its voters, a trust now irrevocably broken.
Posted by: Rotten Peppers | March 05, 2013 at 11:29 AM
Rotten aka "Stephanie Townsend I'm-pissed-because-I'm-a-courthouse-joke" - if there was any indication that 'private business' dictated the deal - and was an actionable offense, because unless it's actionable, who gives a damn, after all, what you want is Joyce's head on a pike - where the hell have Eddie Holguin, Emma Acosta, and Carl Robinson been? They've had their grubby little fingers on every single document concerning this deal. Where is the smoking gun?
Where is the 'super secret you-can't-talk-about-this-deal' document that they were "forced to sign". Those are Eddie Holguin's words, not mine.
Where are the pre-FOIA request emails showing Joyce rolling over for Foster/Hunt. And please don't tell me Emma, Eddie, and Carl weren't privy to them. Work for City Hall -everyone knows what color underwear everyone is wearing - there is no such thing as a secret.
All that 'we-leak-chico's-grease.org' showed us is Joyce has a snarky sense of humor. Not illegal, and not even that interesting.
Office politics is worse than being in middle school. Unfortunately, you, STA, are the bitchy girl who is forced to hang in the library at lunch because no one can stand you. You are unpleasant to be around. Why? Just because you're you. From the infamous, "Don't TOUCH ME!" moment on Xtra, to the "Did I do that?" Urkel impression you gave at Council when your ignorance forced them to stop a meeting and go into Executive Session, your lack of basic human dignity makes whatever validity to your arguments, evaporate.
I used to wonder why you and Norma and all the other Troops of Looney would give up and bitch to each other over your cafecitos. But now, I hope you never do. Your stupidity is just too entertaining.
Posted by: been in the CV for 15 years | March 05, 2013 at 12:29 PM
Ok, I was ranting a bit. Let me clarify.
"...your lack of basic human dignity makes whatever validity to your arguments, evaporate." I meant to say, "...your lack of basic human dignity makes whatever validity your arguments MIGHT have, evaporate."
"I used to wonder why you and Norma and all the other Troops of Looney would give up and bitch to each other over your cafecitos. But now, I hope you never do. Your stupidity is just too entertaining." What I meant to say was, "I used to wonder when you and Norma...."
Too much cafecito this morning.
Posted by: been in the CV for 15 years | March 05, 2013 at 12:38 PM
CV; you did not read the post that agreed no illegal actions have been found yet. The objection is to the way this was done to foist a corporate welfare project (what other term to describe a $100MM handout to a private business) on the voters without a period of community discussion and comment, except after it had been done and the ballot language tweaked to "you will get this no matter how you vote yes or no."
Apparently you and the Borderplex occupation goons think this is the way to run a city. So, Josh, enjoy your welfare check at my expense. But some of us in the oocuppied territory will do our best to stop it.
Posted by: Rotten Peppers | March 05, 2013 at 01:45 PM
Rotten Peppers did not deny being STA...Do Ju believe that? ... AWESOME!!! I love this blog! Keep bitchen STA....You will only make yourself look more and more foolish as time goes by...And when El Paso finally does reach its potential, maybe as soon as next year.... What will you say then? WHAT? I know you watched the City Council presentation on the ball park today...What will you say next year when our downtown is in a constant state of "rock and roll" 24 / 7 similar to a New Orleans Bourbon Street....Or a 6th Street in Austin..... or A Bealle Street in Memphis....Or a Gas Lamp District in San Diego...What are going to say then STA...WHAT? Please enlighten us. I think by that point you will be laughed out of town. Take the trolley from UTEP down to the ballpark before the door kicks you in the ass on your way out.
Posted by: Damnit Norma! | March 05, 2013 at 03:04 PM
Damnit; Those hot dog jobs are really gonna hype the economy here. They are made-to-order for you EPISD retards. Suzy will probably lobby to have a "hot dog" fast trak set up to fill all the vacancies when she's on the EPISD board.
As for downtown, no one is against its development but we are against corporate welfare and Fosterwood's bloodfunnel into our tax base.
Posted by: rotten peppers | March 05, 2013 at 03:17 PM
Rotten
So you're "not against development"....but you are against the city developing an attraction for downtown?
The City will own the Park....so the City can offer additional venues...besides baseball like uh concerts, comedians ...and the potential is unlimited.
How is the city owning an asset considered corporate wellfare. Can you name any other franchise that paid for their own ballpark...or did 99% percent of the franchises partner with the cities they chose to relocate too. The city will make their money back (ie ..INVESTMENT) in the form of a rapidly expanding tax base, that is already occuring.
I thaught Ju recieved a graduate degree in Higher education. Yet you dont see the potential for any other jobs created besides hot dog vendors? Really?...must be a sad little communist world you live in where free thinking entreprenurial spirit is squandered because you lack vision to be a creator...you are a taker...which surprises me.
So, again...you are "not against development"? Right? Or not right...Cause the last 50 year strategy of yours for downtown has done wonders for this city.
Posted by: Damnit Norma! | March 05, 2013 at 03:35 PM
Ya...thats what I thaught!!!Google away Google away Miss STA Run along now little STA cause you cannot play...you've been made the fool that away...You cannot see your hand in front of your face, and the answers you seek vallidate not now go away go awayyy go awayyyy and post here nevermore...nevermore...nevermoreee.....(spoken in my Deniro Focker voice)....
Posted by: Damnit Norma! | March 05, 2013 at 04:41 PM
Josh dammit;
So I'm a communist? Because I am against corporate welfare? For capitalism and free enterprise which does NOT involve huge government subsidies to private businesses (MS).
You probably got your business degree from UTEP, right? Let me explain to you what a $100MM investment (total cost +/-) should yield: about $8MM-$10MM gross rent per year, not $250K. So Fosterwood enjoys a $10MM per year subsidy from us. Trickle-up economics taking from everyone to transfer to the few at MS.
Is that free enterprise. Sounds like corporate socialism to me. Since you are obviously a Mexican, welfare is a big thing in your world, and you can't tell the difference between when it is going to someone who needs it and doesn't need it.
Posted by: rotten peppers | March 05, 2013 at 04:49 PM
Yes Ju are a communist....that does agree with deveopment...but doesnt think the city should have any hand in what that development is. Just let private people come in and do it all themselve...cause thats whats been working all this time.... 8-10MM a year added to the city coffers is huge...Id think a UTEP business student could understand how that economic picture pays for itself in 10 years...You do get that Right? You do understand JU that it takes money to make money, RIGHT? And yes JU are a communist taker...not a maker.
Posted by: Damnit Norma! | March 05, 2013 at 05:00 PM
THE ANSWER 8 - 10MM in a new and vibrant TAX BASE.... YOU GET IT NOW RIGHT JU?
Posted by: Damnit Norma! | March 05, 2013 at 05:03 PM
1 more thing for you JU.... that 10 MM dollar stadium rent you want would add 18 dollars per seat per game... You, do get that right...yoiu get how that doesnt work right... is it starting to become clear to you now?
Posted by: Damnit Norma! | March 05, 2013 at 05:07 PM
Josh dammit.
The stadium does not pay for itself on any kind of cash flow basis, not that you'd understand that. Even city staff did not say it paid for itself in their analysis; it requires the tax subsidy (HOT) to service the bonds. $18 per seat would be a fair price, IMO, though it would probably eat into your Lonestar check.
Yes, I think the private sector should pay its own way. That is how a libertarian fiscal conservative thinks, not a welfare junkie like you.
And as for how El Paso ended up in the mess it is in, look back at your city history to the early 70s when the local powers that be decided to market El Paso as the "low wage capital of America" (i.e., we have lots of dumb Mexicans to work for you) to attract northern factories down here. It worked until NAFTA came along and other countries decided that idiot labor would be profitable for them, too. And that is why we are what we are.
AAA isn't going to change it. Honest government and good schools might help, though.
Posted by: Rotten Peppers | March 05, 2013 at 05:21 PM
Dhahahaha.....Rotten is a Libertarian now!!! I love it...you subscribe to the Austrian school of Economics and worship the alter of Hayek...Fantastico.....SO DO I!!!....yet you contradict everything that you type in the same sentence....you do get that right? City Parks dont cash flow....Quality of Life cash flows...fore you see....sand is not quality of life....In Hayeks beloved Austria he gets to ski for his quality of life exercise...In El Paso we have to build parks on top of our sand....and thats what we are doing...You do understand that no franchise could sustain itself with a 10 MM rental fee per year...But the city will get paid back on their investment by all of the infil investment that will occur as a result of investing in an anchor...or in this case a PARK...which cities are supposed to do...Im sure HAYEK would agree with me....so all I can say about you now is that you are nothing more than a LINO (Libertarian in Name Only) you probably subscribe to Mises Institute to so you can forward intellectual pieces to your friends to make you look smarter than the train wreck you really are....but you dont read them first....becuase I can tell you dont "get it"
Posted by: Damnit Norma! | March 05, 2013 at 05:37 PM
The stadium is a city park in name only because it is controlled entirely by a private interest. If it were a park, you wouldn't have to suck up to Fosterwood to rent it for an event, Josh.
Actuallly not in name only because the CC gave the naming rights for Stole-Ur-Vote field to Fosterwood.
Posted by: Rotten Peppers | March 05, 2013 at 06:20 PM
Turns out Hayek does agree with me ding ding ding ding...I win...
"According to Hayek, government is "necessary" to fulfill the following tasks: not merely for "law enforcement" and "defense against external enemies" but "in an advanced society government ought to use its power of raising funds by taxation to provide a number of services which for various reasons cannot be provided, or cannot be provided adequately, by the market." (Because at all times an infinite number of goods and services exist that the market does not provide, Hayek hands government a blank check.)"
I do have to hand it to you STA or JU who ever you are....If you are the Libertarian STA you say you are ...then you are now a racist too as per your above posts... But the more interesting play would have to be made by Ju pretending to be STA pretending to be a racist Libertarian not knowing a thing about what the party stands for besides..."limited government" bla bla blah...well played Ju ...well played...you do recall that Max Powers outed your alias some time ago right...you do get that right...No never mind you dont... because you dont "get it"
Heres the source of that quote...oh and the source most of your parties ideaology... You might want to read up before you start pretending to be a UTEP Libertarian who heard Ron Paul on the radio a couple of times.
http://mises.org/daily/5747/Why-Mises-and-not-Hayek
Posted by: Damnit Norma! | March 05, 2013 at 06:27 PM
Rotten STA/JU - for that, I decree, is your new moniker - your penchant for giving things silly names, i.e. "Fosterwood bloodfunnel", showing your true racist colors by calling someone "Mexican" in a derogatory way, and intimating a degree from UTEP is as worthless as the paper it is printed on, makes me wonder if you have to wear a neck brace to deal with your whiplash, nonsensical arguments.
Either you think "Mexicans" are hard-working members of the community who deserve to have their 'cultura' saved from the evil whiteys, or you think, as was your tone when you hurled that epithet, that they are to be spat upon when you are not using them for photo ops.
Further, if UTEP is such a crap university and a pox on the citizenry, and the education they offer so substandard that you feel the need to enlighten us poor Miner alums on the finer points of finance because we graduated with a degree that could only prepare us for a career in mid-level finger painting, why do you insist on staying here? Why fight against stupid, UTEP and EPISD educated, "Mexicans"?
You clearly want to keep all the "Mexicans" in this town down on the southside. If they start getting uppity and aspiring to a higher quality of life than the one that has been afforded to them by the misguided, Salazar-esqe, we-cheatem-and-how policies of the past 50 years, you immediately stir the frijole pot and tell them how they are "being whitewashed" by Foster and Hunt.
You tell them that they will lose their homes to a billionaire who has done nothing but try to better the lives of El Pasoans. He brought us a freaking medical school! On the border! In a city that Austinites don't even realize is part of the U.S.!
Maybe if you and the Looney Tunes Troop all scraped together your pennies, you might be able to buy a cafecito and pan dulce to share amongst yourself. The rest of us are going to go to the Don tonight to watch the Miners whup up on Memphis. In a little more than a year from now, we'll be getting ready to PLAY BALL!!!!!!!
And you, Rotten STA/JU? You keep combing through your FOIA'd emails from the city so you can complain about Joyce Wilson's snarkiness.
Posted by: been in the CV for 15 years | March 05, 2013 at 08:21 PM
Well much time has passed for rotten sta ju...I'm only left to assume 1 thing..Her DC ass is reading Mises past in order to pretend she's a "fiscal conservative Libertarian" ... Which she pretends to be but knows nothing about... I LOVE THIS BLOG!! What a joke the whole "anti development yet / I'm all for downtown development" movement has turned out to be... It's really comical... Is there a Rosetta Stone class in tape that these people can listen to on their way to working for the government? I'm sure that these naysayer are making their money as political hacks without the slightest comprehension of "fiscal conservatism" .... What a joke you are!!
Posted by: Damnit Norma!! | March 06, 2013 at 02:26 AM
I'll just put some cheese and chile on my oatmeal this morning and say I love Mexican cultura (and take a Tums).
Posted by: Rotten Peppers | March 06, 2013 at 07:12 AM
After your oatmeal you should go see your therapist and up you meds dosage.
Posted by: Damnit Norma! | March 08, 2013 at 02:12 AM
Does anybody else ever read this thing? Also, I loved the use of the word bloodfunnel. You can't buy entertainment like this.
Posted by: tbusch | March 10, 2013 at 12:30 PM