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June 17, 2014


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I think DK and Max have even wrote about too many downtown arenas issues...the Quality of Life Bond was not for MLS Soccer...and says the arena has to go downtown, just as one has to admit prior designated money can not go to Lincoln Center, a city can not keep shifting funds from one accounts to another and not get in trouble, for example Rapid Bus funds for Luther Rehab. It is good the Ballpark attendance is ok but its still the Honeymoon eg will the common El Pasoan keep paying $9 for the Ballpark Juarez Hotdog or $7 for the Lemonade Next year this time? The few weeks the Ballpark been open is too soon to draw historical guess that Downtown can fill 3 arenas now plus Don Haskins.

It stuff like over at the county the Childrens Hospital scandal, the jail annex new roof and the downtown jail unknown that has the average El Paso Taxpayer nervous and not unemployed ankle biters.

Will the county judge honestly influence support a first class masterpiece Soccer stadium like she did the Childrens Hospital and the scandal shape it is now?

These issues are bigger than a handful of unemployed ankle-biters holding a protest sign. They are issues that effect every El Pasoan and should not be laughed at or taken lightly. Like the Mayor said [and only if legal ie moving prior designated funds] any new arenas this time should be left up to the voters and more transparent than last time.

if mtn star had a ballerina troupe we would have to build a ballerina studio. el paso is over 50% renters/leesers and will never build wealth. thats what these fools want. a town starving for entertainment and 9$ beers but on a busch light budget. time to get a title loan on the POS minivan.

Let the whining begin. Good to see you back - DK!

If we get a MLS Team AND we are going to build an Arena downtown anyway, why would we NOT put the Soccer Team in the Arena? Surely we are not contemplating building an Arena and then a separate facility IF we land the MLS Team?

The city as a matter of principle should bar MS from further dealings with us. MS has shown, with help from CC and a spineless mayor, that they are not to be trusted. They have contempt for transparency and democratic process (like a yes/no vote). MS is like a panhandler under the freeway looking for another slurp from the public trough. Stand up and tell Foster and Hunt to GFT.

Democratic process does not work in El Paso. Our citizens have shown a long term propensity for stupid. Witness Acosta, Limon & Robinson! Can't trust them with the vote, give them what they need & tell them where they need it! Ballpark is great. Foster & Hunt are great! Where the hell would this city be without them! RP you can move, maybe someone will miss you! Just once stop grousing about the same shit over & over & over & over! Get the point dipshit!

Great post, Ken!

You mean the Hunts and Fosters?

The people that have donated 100's of millions of dollars to UTEP, The Medical School, UMC and countless other local charities and such?

The people that have brought us the best thing to happen El Paso in decades with the ballpark and the Chihuahua's?

The people that have invested and continue to invest millions in the city redeveloping blighted and historical properties both downtown and throughout the city?

The people that employ hundreds if not thousands of local individuals and others throughout the country?

These are the people you are comparing to "panhandlers" asking for handouts?

These are the people you want us to rise up against and run out of town?

I heard lemon had an item that council deleted. Hopefully she's figured out that playing the "pobrecita" last minute card doesn't work anymore. Race cards played with loud mouth racists used to be a good strategy for the raza Juarez clan. But the internets debased the rhetoric as a single group of dying race bating divisiveness people. Sad really.

You mean the Hunts and Fosters?

Yes. We are talking about one issue here: a soccer team. If they come back with a "deal" like the stadium (keep 'em in the dark and don't let 'em vote"; city pays the capital cost, maintenance; city bears the downside risk and MS gets the upside profits), turn around and run.

If you are going to be a philanthropist, then let us know ahead of time if there is an "invisible invoice" attached to your generosity so we can see the whole deal.

Hunt and Foster do good things but that does not change the fact that the new $180 Arena the Voters approved in 2012 cannot legally be the new MLS Soccer stadium...thus counting the Downtown convention center and Don Haskins and the new Baseball stadium we will have 5 downtown area Arenas to keep filled and supported...is this possible?

Voters approved in 2012 cannot legally be the new MLS Soccer stadium
Why couldn't it be a soccer venue, too? But charge a rent that carries the cost, not like the AAA stadium. Enough corporate welfare for these two leeches!

My understanding is that MLS wants a free standing soccer only stadium. A multi use stadium is not acceptable to them so I've heard.


What is the difference legally between an arena and 20,000 seat stadium?


Regarding multi-use, other MLS soccer stadiums are in fact multi-use.



I think Max it would fall back on what was represented to the voters back in 2012 re the $180 Million Arena both leading up to the election and afterwords and same what was represented to the Bond buyers....I am uncertain if a new election re the $180m could undue it eg embed MountainStar into it...I doubt it, without more legal research.

Let's not get hung up on stupid here! Why would we ever build an arena AND an MLS Soccer Stadium? Everyone agrees we can't print money around here so you convert the Arena to an MLS Soccer Stadium that will also be able to handle other functions. It's being done in other cities, why not El Paso? So what if the possibility of an MLS Team didn't exist when the bond for the Arena passed. Things change. At the end of the day for crying out loud do the logical sensible thing! Common sense isn't completely dead in El Paso - is it?

ken, we tore down a perfectly good building to build a baseball stadium downtown when we could have remodeled cohen into the stadium we have now and not have to move city services into 3 buildings that when done will cost us at least another 100 million. yes, common sense is completely dead here. in this town its whatever paul wants he gets. that is without a vote by the public and his campaign donations to the reps who vote his way. its pretty simple. i do agree with you on the arena. make it soccer standards and anything else we can have like fights and even basketball tourney. why build two ? that requires common sense, but if paul demands it, watch out.

The thing is the MLS stadium cannot be done on the public's dime. The City just can't afford anymore debt but they still keep loading up on it. I'm very afraid that we will see a downgrade on our debt in the future. We are already paying 100 basis points over the average AA rated bonds. The budget taking shape is not good. Expect tax increases.


City Hall was far from being "perfectly good." It did not meet the City's own ADA and fire codes. The mechanical system was on it's last leg and the plumbing needed extensive work. There was an estimated needed repairs of over $30MM. Please do a little bit of research before you spout out false information.

Apparently you have not even set foot inside the new stadium because no one with any common sense would compare renovating Cohen stadium with this beautiful new first class facility.

I wish you would use some common sense before you post your foolish comments.

Why can't MLS be played at the Sun Bowl? With only 17 home games a year MLS gate receipts won't pay for a new stadium.

The old City Hall was a mess and needed to go. The upper part of downtown is moving at a very nice pace, increased tax revenues on the horizon. The part of downtown near the border is mostly crap and will likely remain that way. The Mexican shoppers crossing over seem unlikely to demand better and the slumlords in that area will not make any improvements for their "client" base. El Paso can have nice things. Just don't crap all over the people bringing it to you! Sorry to have to point this out, those folks, Foster & Hunt, are allowed to make some money off the deals. Taxpayers get to enjoy the baseball team, so is it really out of line that taxpayers should foot some of the bill? The concept is sound, you may disagree with the total cost to taxpayers, but that's why it is important to elect representatives that can actually think. The democratic process is easier to invoke when you have reasonably intelligent folks elected to public office. Just look at the long line of complete idiots that have served on City Council the past 12-15 years. You could make a strong case that it is an incredible accomplishment that anything of value has happened.

Foster and Hunt is in for about 10% and the City is in at 90%. Income generated is even less to the City. That is not what I would call a partnership. In my eyes a partnership is 50-50 but that is not what we have.

The City just can't afford anymore debt but they still keep loading up on it.
Ah, but you have a city CFO who is skilled in the MS numbers game, aka kool-aid. It worked for the stadium and she is on track for an EPISD position as soon as Gonzalez sees through the city hall numbers mindf**k.

And yet again, as you always do, you dodge the questions pointed at you and try to change the subject to spew some more hatred towards anyone with $20 more than you.

In the end, it really comes down to the fact that your position on these subjects is so ridiculous you can't defend yourself, you'll get your ass handed to you, and you know it.

And RP...
I'd like to point out that you and the other 3 anti-ballpark idiots still left in this town, get your asses handed to you over and over, day after day for the next 20 years with every one of the tickets sold and hot dogs eaten.

Karma... at its finest!

Nelp; Ahhh....hot dogs and hot dog jobs and a trickle-up economy. What a great future to celebrate and to give thanks to our bought and paid for CC that they should have bestowed it upon us.

Rotten, did it ever occur to you that the jobs at the ballpark aren't the ones you should be looking at? The people who have the money to pay for the tickets, concessions, parking, before the game shenanigans, after the game shenanigans - they are the ones who have jobs that are good enough to pay for these things game after game after game.

No one expects the jobs at the ballpark to make people rich, only you expect that. They are jobs that pay the kind of wages you would expect at any ballpark.

Apparently RP is incapable of seeing the big picture when it comes to economic development.

She doesn't understand how many construction workers earned a years salary plus tons of overtime building the stadium.

She doesn't understand just how much tax revenue has already been generated by retail sales of store merchandise, liquor and concessions - which have been well over projections.

She doesn't understand how much advertising revenue has been created in the local market by the stadium and related merchants.

She doesn't understand how many other third-party services providers are getting revenue from stadium operations such as janitorial, maintenance, phone, Internet, housekeeping, insurance, supplies, bakeries, bottlers, just to name a few.

She doesn't understand that having this amenity in the City helps attract outside businesses to relocate to El Paso.

It's too bad whining complainers like RP refuse to open their eyes and understand the big picture. It's people like her that hold this City back. Very sad...

And you don't understand the contract that was signed nor the implications of the tax reinvesting zone has on the citys general fund.

or the Cost to the city which is around 200 million dollars that grows every year.

Rotten Peppers just got schoooooled!!! In your f#%king face face rotten peppers.... How does it feel to be humiliated. You look like an idiot as always... Glad to see so many people make you look like the idiot u are. I can't stop laughing at how stupid you have been made to look. I think all you have left is your Raza friends... But ironically I think u may have pissed them off too. I guess you and three names STD and Lemon are the last 3 cave people left bitching about the ball park. I really did enjoy your use of the word "blood funnel" though. That term really elevated your argument straight to the point of irrelevance. In short id like to conclude that you have been taken out to the wood shed and humiliated. Do you realize how stupid you look? Which former congressmans payroll are you on anyway?

well i know that the baseball stadium could not Tesla motors to open their plan here...AAA baseball does not attract employers!

She doesn't understand that having this amenity in the City helps attract outside businesses to relocate to El Paso.
Name one. Name one that has even looked seriously at El Paso in the last 5 years. Name one looking now. Can you cite ANY factual evidence that a business relocates to a city because it has a AAA team?

But they do look at taxes and local politics and I can tell you that back room cronyism is not a selling point. The $200MM that it has cost El Paso for Dammit's sweaty enjoyment will not attract a dime of outside investment.

For that, look to the MCA complex if Valenti and the County don't f**k it up.


So why don't you tell us what negative impact the stadium contract and TIRZ has on the general fund???

RP....... You obviously missed the headline that Prudential decided to relocate up to 600 jobs to EP do to the quality of life here. Your new mayor entertained the prudential executives in the cities "luxury box" for the first game. They announced 3 days later. So again you're an idiot and your gash is a blood funnel!

Call center, right? Yeah and they really need computer scientists and engineers, right? They said so: "Prudential is looking for people with a knack for technology, but only a high school diploma will be required, Koster said."

Damnit, you'll fit right in, assuming you even got out of HS before you started working at Chicos.

Guess what? Call centers locate around military bases because military spouses seek part time jobs. Here, Ft. Carsen, Ft. Hood, Lackland AFB...They could give a shit about baseball or even a water park.

Alamo Draft House, Twin Peaks, Tilted Kilt, Le Madeleine, Nordstom Rack, Jason's Deli, Cavenders Boots.... Do you feel stupid yet blood funnel?


You probably don't even need a HS diploma to push hot dogs and beer for Woody World. Go for it!

Alamo Draft House, Twin Peaks, Tilted Kilt, Le Madeleine, Nordstom Rack, Jason's Deli, Cavenders Boots...
Big time corporate welfare, too, to the town's biggest welfare leech. Tax abatements up the wazoo and the city covered site demolition, if I recall.

But, Damnit, even you might get a job at one of these assuming you got out of HS. Then you could move out of your folk's house and get an apartment with 5 or 6 other minimum wage flunkies like yourself.

Forget about ever owning a home as the Blood Funnel is sucking the wealth out of the little people like you and Peppers.

I just don't understand how you justify the word blood in your phrase blood funnel. It's really ludicrouse. Also,, why would any company move to this town with out abarements? Jobs are jobs .... They are hard to come by and competitive to get... The city used to have a no abatement policy. For years. Guess what...no one came. Now they are coming because it makes sense for them to do so... I don't get your position at all . If you aren't making money here it's probably because you got a liberal arts degree in modern basket weaving techniques. If you have a brain and can sell a product ..... Hot dog or medical device... U too can escape the blood funnel and have enough left over to purchase a 5 dollar baseball ticket coupled with a 8 dollar bacon wrapped Juarez dog big enough to feed your face for 3 days.

Peppers could have a graduate degree in Chicano Studies; very in demand by the likes of Boeing, Lockheed, Northrup, IBM and Prudential call centers. Peppers would also like to see a free market maintained where businesses and products bear their total cost of production.

Not here, though, where both libs and tea baggers both agree on big time welfare; libs for the peons and tea baggers for business.

There is only so much blood for the Hunt-Foster Vampire Squid to suck out, however. I hope they suck yours out and leave Pepper's alone.


You recollection is ABSOLUTELY WRONG! As a matter of fact, you are an outright liar. There was never a single dollar spent by the City to demolish the Farah plant. It was never even discussed or mentioned in the news. You insist on slandering good people with outright lies.

As far as "tax abatements up the wazoo.." once again you are so far off base.
The Fountains receives a very small percentage refund on sales tax of any new merchants to El Paso. These are sales tax dollars that El Paso would never have seen if had not been for Fountains getting them to move to El Paso.

Once again you have no clue about economic development. It is a good thing when new merchants enter a market. It creates new jobs, and brings new employees in who transfer in with the new company. It stimulates the local economy.

Once again, there were over 800 local construction workers who earned incomes for 18 months building the Fountains.

There are hundreds of local business who now have ongoing income by servicing the new stores at the Fountains: security guards, plumbers, landscapers, electricians etc.

Thousands of dollars are spent on advertising every month by the Fountains and their stores. So now the billboard vendors, local radio and TV stations all benefit.

The consumers all benefit because there is more competition now. Merchants are competing for your business more and more.

The Outlet Mall advertises all the time now. They are offering live concerts now since Fountains started that. The Outlet mall built a skating rink during Christmas just like the Fountains did.

Hooters just remodeled their restaurant after Twin Peaks came to the Fountains and created competition.

Basset Center and Ciela Vista are taking notice and are making improvements as well.

There is no corporate welfare going on here. It is called economic development. Obviously you still don't get and never will.


The Fountains gets no property tax abatement? Check it out. Don't you recall DelaVega (her brother) urging CC to not grant his brother-in-law (Foster) these abatements?

NO GODDAM TAX ABATEMENTS FOR ANYONE. Pay your way you fucking welfare leeches; goes double for the rich leeches!

RP - time to take your meds. You really need to calm down - perhaps move to a very small town that has no idea what an "abatement" is or economic development.

If new businesses just take money away from old businesses, there's not really any economic development. Tax incentives for the new businesses just encourage a reshuffling of the deck.

It's too early to evaluate the success of the ballpark. The promised boom in local nightlife hasn't happened yet. Where are all those bars that were supposed to spring up? I guess Soho's getting more business, but those drunks would likely be drinking someplace else.

El Paso needs a totally new 19th century economic development strategy - sex. There used to be bordellos lining Kansas Street and the city licensed and taxed their services, until as recently as the 1920s. Chip Johns had a genuine City of El Paso 20's vintage bordello license framed and on display at the Hacienda some years back, in the Pancho Villa Room.

Think of the thousands of cross-country cars and trucks passing along I-10 on any given day. Is that a market to tap or not? It is a perfect opportunity for Hunt, Foster and the city hall pimps who earned their spurs with the stadium deal.

In fact, this is the perfect re-use for the Asarco property: a truck plaza complete with "curbside service" for lonely drivers.

We could call it Pump-and-Hump.

Peppers would support this even if it included tax abatements for the Usual Suspects.

Re: 19th century economic development strategy for El Paso.

We could carve out a new TIRZ - the Tenderloin Incremental Redevelopment Zone - along Kansas. Think of all those little bungalows and old mansions as being perfect for boutique-style bordellos with services licensed and taxed by the city and promoted to I-10 travelers as a recreational stop.

Of course, to make it 21st century, they would need to have a politically-correct variety of services for folks like Max (anal) and Martin (gay). The cabelleros prefer blonds and I don't know what would appeal to DK, but the free market will find his niche.

...is it just me or does the Twilight Zone music creep into the background when you read RP's postings?

Re: 19th century economic development strategy #2 for El Paso.

QUES: How can we find a good adaptive reuse for Jefferson HS that earned a "D" in the 2014 Children at Risk school rankings for Texas?

ANS: Medical research. All those illegal migrants storming across our border need to be housed and fed, so let's adapt the failed Jefferson HS for that purpose and use them for medical research at the MCA campus. Think of all the drug and medical device companies that would stampede to El Paso to test their wares on a docile and immobilized clinical population. It boggles the mind.

So stop building stadiums and soccer fields and get back to our roots in the 19th century when El Paso stood for something (sleaze and violence) but everyone could make money from it.


Peppers loved those Rod Serling episodes and can still catch them occasionally on cable. Pepper's favorite is the woman who returns to the department store attic, only to discover she is really a mannequin. Reminds me of some on CC. Yours?

Just trying to think outside the box and come up with something different and old, in keeping with El Paso's lurid, spiritually-charged past, usually the best source for inspiration. Baseball is so 20th century.

So, 2000 BC economic development strategy #3 for El Paso: Burning Chui.

OK, Burning Man is copyrighted. How do we capitalize on our huge, accessible expanse of desert to attract 20 or 30 thousand well-educated, creative class whack jobs with money here once a year?

Answer: let's have a pagan desert festival organized around an Aztec-Mayan theme called "Burning Chui" with a big pyramid where you could cut yourself and bleed all over an altar at the top, or throw mannequins of people you don't like down the pyramid staircase after you've eviscerated them. (Guess who Pepper's mannequins are?)

I know, it's pretty weird, but not out of the picture for a place like San Francisco and all those Creative Class types that The Witch paid Richard Florida to come and tell us how to attract more of them here, besides the 50 we already had.

It could even be an extension of Woody World's MLS team. The soccer connection is right out of Mayan history with a final game played for thousands and the losers get ritually (fake) sacrificed to Burning Chui at the end. Then everyone gets wasted on corn liquor and what happens, happens.

Really, not so different from Burning Man.

"If new businesses just take money away from old businesses, there's not really any economic development. Tax incentives for the new businesses just encourage a reshuffling of the deck."

Lenny, if new businesses took money away from old money, then Bassett would have died when Cielo Vista was opened, which would have died when Sunland Park opened, which would have died when Las Palmas opened, which would have died when the Fountains opened. See where I'm going here? We aren't reshuffling the deck. We are keeping money that used to flow out of El Paso for entertainment, shopping, etc., in El Paso.

Rotten - good lord, man, get a tighter grip on your horses.

The tax abatement only works in the short term. There are devastating in the long term. Read any scholarly journal in economics to find this out...Plus if you need the government to make money, your plan is not a good plan. Patty is a coconut.

OMG skz!You are worse than RP.

Hopefully younger El Pasoans take the time to actually study economic development and help guide this City in a positive direction. It is very difficult to get anything done with these backward, stubborn, uneducated mentalities lurking throughout this city.

Let's see. New development downtown ? We lost the tax that the Times paid us around 200,000 per year. We lost the Luther which wasn't much. Around 12,000. We lost the other building(Mulligan ?) and not sure about its property tax. Sanders tore down a building along with Rubin. That's only tax on land now.
Rubin's other building burned down. Only tax on land again. Borderplex is selling its shares in downtown properties. Why, if there is such a downtown economic boom ?


younger El Pasoans will have some credibility when they show up and vote.

Brilliant analysis RP....when young voters come out....the age old question...25 years ago H Ross Perot tried that too! You're really on to something here...cause I think young voters want no change either...just like you young voters don't want ballparks or new malls to hang out at. Bravo RP ... You've really got this political economic development thing nailed down...probably with a 30k yearly salary. That's pretty good for you and your IQ. Well done RP...well done. You've outwitted everyone.

"just like you young voters don't want ballparks or new malls to hang out at"
Then they should come out and vote that preference or for candidates representing such OR the opposite for the fascists.

As it is, you all prefer to idle away your uneducated, unskilled lives looking for entertainment rather than engagement.

Some of those people who were against the ballpark are now going to games regularly and pretending they supported it all along. Others are honest enough to admit they didn't get the big picture. Whatever -- the ballpark is a success and one of the best things that has happened to El Paso in the last couple of decades. I hope the MLS deal goes through. The voters could decide to use the arena bond money for a multi-use stadium that could hose the soccer team.

BBFan...you're making a lot of assumptions about me that are incorrect. then people like you resort to name calling and use words they have no idea what they mean. Please define economic development and then explain the largest drivers of economic development. you can use the wiki if youd like

If the games are such a success, then why have they been giving away tickets? To boost attendance? Fill the stadium?

Question - they give away tickets to charitable groups and the military.

Games are a success because of the tickets that have been sold, not because of the few that are given away.

I don't see anyone discussing market size. Is there a market in El Paso for beisball, soccer and whatever the arena is to be used for.

BTW, is the arena large enough to "host" a soccer field?

I meant baseball

The SunBowl has been fitted for soccer..but it doesn't come with big construction contracts and therefore less graft.

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