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August 07, 2014


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What? You don't believe the ecstasy of Courtney Niland that the trolley will generate a 10 to 1 return? I agree, too.

You also make a point Peppers has been trying to make, that El Paso lives at the bottom of the economic ladder and not at the top. So all this shit about DTEP is just shit. The city has no yuppie class to occupy or patronize a gentrified DTEP.

But if you point this out, well you are a crazy ankle-biter who is against progress. In a bottom rung city, what you need is good streets and basics.

At least someone has been direct in stating their concerns about the trolley.

When you wade through all the public hype, suspect you may be correct.

If examined closely, this is a project where decision makers wanted little public involvement.

Why wait for a streetcar from UTEP to downtown when there are already buses every 10 minutes? The streetcar is also a one way loop taking a much longer route to get from UTEP/hospitals to the downtown transfer station & vice versa. The 'development will follow' rationale falls flat with supposed supporting examples being outnumbered by cases where no development followed. This is a project pushed on SunMetro, not something that fills a strategic need or addresses demand or under capacity.

What we need for every project the city gets involved in is a P&L plus a business plan laying out the facts of how the project will be funded, it's O&M costs and its benefit to the citizens. Had this been done with the trolley it would not have been given the green light. It's high time that the citizens see a return on their investment. A real return not a bunch of smoke, mirrors and fuzzy math.

The best thing to protect the taxpayer is the creation of a PID to handle all of the Trolley's O&M costs. Let those who claim that this will drive economic development pay these costs.

No offense, U.

But you're a jackass.

Seriously a P&L? For government? Especially for transportation? You really want government to be profit-driven? Careful for what you wish for.



NO Max I just want a business plan, market study by third parties not connected to those involved with parties to the project and a projected P&L signed off by accountants and Bankers to ensure that the taxpayers money will receive a return on their investment. By providing such documents we get away from the "pump and dump/snake oil salesman/ bogus studies" that are prevalent to justify projects the City and County are putting forward these days.

Let's remember this was shoved down our throats because it was TxDOT money and therefore "no cost to taxpayers". Where the hell do you think TxDOT gets it's money? These funds were earmarked by the Feds for States to use in cities that would be stupid enough to take it. So there you go. Sun metro and certain council people don't give a damn - it's just like DavidK said-they got a new train set for Christmas in July.

TBG - you just gave me an idea, we could put white lights on the trolleys for the Christmas Lights Parade! The trolleys were running when I was a little girl and my nana would take me downtown every Saturday to shop and to have lunch. It was alive back then, some of us believe it can be that way again. DK you know I love you, but I hope you are wrong on this one.

You are all short sighted... The trolley will run at a defecit... No doubt...but the development along the route will make up for it as RP said 10-1... I'll move downtown too because I know it will be transformed. I see it. You all dont... Whatever..

Any TxDOT transportation project has a lot of yearly ongoing O&M including the Interstate and Spur 601 and Loop 375. Why is the trolley the only one that has to rationalize its yearly O&M? Freeways by definition never pay for their O&M, we subsidize the hell out of them (above the gas tax).

Like the ballpark, if we could agree on a metric that determines success or failure, say in 5 years, we could bet a steak dinner on this.

Max, U is right about a P&L. A public entity is not supposed to make money, but it's not supposed to show a loss either. Money coming in verses money going out should be looked at without question. That's on everything the city. It's just basic accounting.


It was Niland ecstasizing about a 10 to one return, not Peppers. Peppers agrees with DK and U on this one. But it is a done deal and will probably operate at a cash flow loss as I believe the stadium does now, except it will be buried in the city's financials so no one can prove it is not a huge, ecstatic success.

BTW, Peppers also agrees with DK that, if there is real economic development here, it is probably in medical. We actually have a resource here to market: undocumented migrants. Use them for medical experiments.

Once the word gets out, Peppers thinks the migrating hoards will dry up prontissimo.

Let's see if existing businesses survive to see this predicted economic boom. Overhead wires have to be strung and the route will be ripped up and blocked for a year while the streets are rebuilt/strengthened and tracks added.

We could save time on wire construction if we used horses to pull them. Really go retro!


They won't do that. I made that very suggestion awhile back. They could build Parking garages on the corners of downtown, use horse drawn trolleys/ carriages to move people about town and turn downtown into pedestrian only. All deliveries would be between 12am and 6am.

Oh yeah that's what we need, close downtown to traffic, so we can have horses in the streets...

Boy downtown business will really prosper then huh?


Robnelp, well we could have a fertilizer factory built downtown to make money off the horse shit in the streets. Those jobs would probably pay better than the hot dog sellers at the stadium.

There's plenty of horseshit in city hall. We don't need horses in the street.

Understand that this is not some sort of Transportation relief but more of an attraction. I for one look forward to having our street cars back. You people complain about everything. I'm still within the 25-40 demographic that wants this city to succeed and move forward. It's bad enough we get ignored by Austin. We have this money now! So let's use it for some worth while.

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